Hey Plummy. As long as youre having fun, who cares. These damn computers are a trial arent they?? working them is like trying to sketch a masterpiece with frozen hands, if you have no natural affinity with comps. But we just keep slugging on, and, slowly, we learn a little more every day.
refiners fire
JoinedPosts by refiners fire
-
5
The Astronomy Vision
by refiners fire inself deluded channels and the justifications they concoct to excuse their false prophecies are a thing of fascination.
the most striking thing about these prophets is their predictability.
they all fall into the very same trap, they all get trapped by their own totalistic words .
-
-
-
5
Astronomy Vision
by refiners fire inself deluded channels and the justifications they concoct to excuse their false prophecies are a thing of fascination.
the most striking thing about these prophets is their predictability.
they all fall into the very same trap, they all get trapped by their own totalistic words .
-
-
refiners fire
Star. They are the same group yes. It used to be known as Amazing Truth, but is now called Amazing Facts
But what about the information in the post? Do you know anything of Adventism? They are quite interesting
-
5
Astronomy Vision
by refiners fire inself deluded channels and the justifications they concoct to excuse their false prophecies are a thing of fascination.
the most striking thing about these prophets is their predictability.
they all fall into the very same trap, they all get trapped by their own totalistic words .
-
-
refiners fire
Self deluded “channels” and the justifications they concoct to excuse their false prophecies are a thing of fascination. The most striking thing about these prophets is their predictability. They all fall into the very same trap, they all get trapped by their own totalistic words . The dubs are no different from the ‘Amazing Truth’ Adventist group, Mormons, or The ‘Church Universal and Triumphant’ in terms of the need to use slippery arguments to excuse erroneous utterances by the Prophet/ channel. They have all made absolutist statements that proved erroneous, and they all use the same basic arguments to cover up their error. They all shift the blame, they all deny they ever said it, they all postpone the fulfilment of prophecy, etc. All the cults use the same basic lines of argument to attempt to slip the noose of error, but the subtle differences between groups in their methods are quite fascinating. The example following is an Adventist example from the mid 19 th century. The following quotes are all from a single book called
ELLEN G WHITE AND HER CRITICS . By Francis Nichol.
Nichol is an Adventist apologist, a refuter of Adventist ‘Apostates’ who accuse the ‘channel’ (Ellen G White) of lying / deception. Let the reader be aware that it is not an organizational channel of truth that Adventists recognize but an individual, Ellen G White. Thus, the preservation of this individuals infallibility is the primary aim of the Apologist Nichol. Nichol is explaining apparent contradictions in statements and ‘visions’ received by Ellen G White. Quotes are from the section of his book called:
THE ASTRONOMY VISION
QUOTE: “The Apostates Charge that: ‘Mrs. White was having visions which [Joseph] Bates did not believe were of God; but they [Mrs. White and her husband] were anxious to convince him that they were genuine. Bates had been a sea captain, and had consequently studied the stars; had, in fact, become enthusiastic about astronomy. In the presence of Mrs. White and others he had often talked about the different planets, their positions, moons, and the ‘opening heavens….”One evening at the conference above mentioned [Topsham, Maine, 1846], in the house of Mr. Curtis, and in the presence of Elder (Captain) Bates, who was yet undecided in regard to the manifestations, Mrs. White, while in vision, began to talk about the stars, giving a glowing description of the rosy-tinted belts which she saw across the surface of some planet, and added, “I see four moons.” “Oh,” said Elder Bates, “she is viewing Jupiter.” Then, having made motions as though travelling through space, she began giving descriptions of belts and rings in their ever-varying beauty, and said, “I see seven moons.” “She is describing Saturn.” Next came a description of Uranus with his six moons, then a wonderful description of the “opening heavens.” … “This was sufficient, and accomplished its purpose. Elder Bates was convinced, and became a firm believer in the visions.”
This passage is quoted by the apologist Nichol from a standard Adventist History “The Great Second Advent Movement” by J N Loughborough, published in the 1890s when the dubs were still in diapers. According to sect historian Loughborough, from that night forth, The extremely WEALTHY Bates became a fully convicted believer in Ellen Whites “prophethood”, And he contributed accordingly, However, as Adventist ‘apostates’ point out, there is now, (1944) a problem with Mrs Whites ‘vision’. Nichol says:
QUOTE: “Later discoveries have now shown that both Jupiter and Saturn have MORE MOONS than she said.”
How does The Apologist explain these ‘false visions’ of Mrs White?? Nichol requotes the passage to point something out to us:
QUOTE: “I see four moons.” “Oh,” SAID ELDER BATES, “SHE IS VIEWING JUPITER”. Then, having made motions as though travelling through space, she began giving descriptions of belts and rings in their ever-varying beauty, and said, “I see seven moons.” SAID BATES “SHE IS DESCRIBING SATURN”.
The astute reader will notice that, in the passage quoted ( From Loughborough) it is not Mrs White who mentions Saturn or Jupiter, rather, it is the soon to be converted BATES. This pattern of blame shifting justification continues in the apologists very next quote:
QUOTE: “In May, 1847, James White made this brief reference to the 1846 vision:….“At our conference in Topsham, Maine, last Nov., Ellen had a vision of the handy works of God. She was guided to the planets, Jupiter, Saturn, and I think one more. After she came out of vision, she could give a clear description of their Moons, etc. It is well known, that she knew nothing of astronomy, and could not answer one question in relation to the planets, before she had this vision.”—A Word to the “Little Flock,” p. 22”
Here he is quoting JAMES WHITE, Ellen Whites husband and co founder of the Adventist publishing house. James White has ASSUMED Ellen was referring to Saturn and Jupiter, as did Bates ASSUME, But neither of these people are the CHANNEL thru which God communicates. Only Mrs White is the channel, so, like White House officials in service of a beleaguered president, the Secretary of State, the Vice President all posthumously step up to the block to be chopped, even the innocent have to accept blame for ASSUMING things that the channel never said. The apologist Nichol continues:
QUOTE: “Mrs. M. C. Truesdail (nee Stowell), who, as a girl of about sixteen, was present when the vision was given, wrote a letter of reminiscences in which she included this statement:…“Sister White was in very feeble health, and while prayers were offered in her behalf, the Spirit of God rested upon us. We soon noticed that she was insensible to earthly things. This was her first view of the planetary world. After counting aloud the moons of Jupiter, and soon after those of Saturn, she gave a beautiful description of the rings of the latter. She then said, ‘The inhabitants are a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of earth. Sin has never entered here.’ It was evident from Brother Bates's smiling face that his past doubts in regard to the source of her visions were fast leaving him. We all knew that Captain Bates was a great lover of astronomy, as he would often locate many of the heavenly bodies for our instruction. When Sister White replied to his questions, after the vision, saying that she had never studied or otherwise received knowledge in this direction, he was filled with joy and happiness. He praised God, and expressed his belief that this vision concerning the planets was given that he might never again doubt.”
The ‘inhabitants of Saturn are tall and majestic’. Lol. Loughborough has left that little statement out of his account of the vision altogether. But what is important is that, in the churches official version, everyone at the session, Captain Bates- later the third most important man in the movement, James White- The second most important person in the movement, Loughborough- the chief historian of the movement… All these people ASSUMED Mrs White was talking about Jupiter and Saturn, but she herself NEVER SAID IT. The followers “assumed”, incorrectly, as it turns out, and the channel is not guilty of false utterance. Surely this is a comprehensive example of the standard cult excuse of blaming the listeners for “reading things into the Watchtower, that were never said”. . (reposted because I cant find it anywhere in the forum rooms)
-
12
Introducing Kelpie to dubs at the mall.
by BLISSISIGNORANCE inwell, not face to face...........after all she is df'ed.
lol.
kelpie and i had some fun at our local mall yesterday.
-
-
refiners fire
Priscilla, you are already completely corrupted by me. Its too late.
Now as to Apostate games with innocent dubs,the possibilities are endless. Im saving my pennies to get a digital camera. Once I get it I'll accompany the dubs from door to door and post the results on site. Should be good for a snigger at least.
-
5
The Astronomy Vision
by refiners fire inself deluded channels and the justifications they concoct to excuse their false prophecies are a thing of fascination.
the most striking thing about these prophets is their predictability.
they all fall into the very same trap, they all get trapped by their own totalistic words .
-
-
refiners fire
Self deluded “channels” and the justifications they concoct to excuse their false prophecies are a thing of fascination. The most striking thing about these prophets is their predictability. They all fall into the very same trap, they all get trapped by their own totalistic words . The dubs are no different from the ‘Amazing Truth’ Adventist group, Mormons, or The ‘Church Universal and Triumphant’ in terms of the need to use slippery arguments to excuse erroneous utterances by the Prophet/ channel. They have all made absolutist statements that proved erroneous, and they all use the same basic arguments to cover up their error. They all shift the blame, they all deny they ever said it, they all postpone the fulfilment of prophecy, etc. All the cults use the same basic lines of argument to attempt to slip the noose of error, but the subtle differences between groups in their methods are quite fascinating. The example following is an Adventist example from the mid 19 th century. The following quotes are all from a single book called
ELLEN G WHITE AND HER CRITICS . By Francis Nichol.
Nichol is an Adventist apologist, a refuter of Adventist ‘Apostates’ who accuse the ‘channel’ (Ellen G White) of lying / deception. Let the reader be aware that it is not an organizational channel of truth that Adventists recognize but an individual, Ellen G White. Thus, the preservation of this individuals infallibility is the primary aim of the Apologist Nichol. Nichol is explaining apparent contradictions in statements and ‘visions’ received by Ellen G White. Quotes are from the section of his book called:
THE ASTRONOMY VISION
QUOTE: “The Apostates Charge that: ‘Mrs. White was having visions which [Joseph] Bates did not believe were of God; but they [Mrs. White and her husband] were anxious to convince him that they were genuine. Bates had been a sea captain, and had consequently studied the stars; had, in fact, become enthusiastic about astronomy. In the presence of Mrs. White and others he had often talked about the different planets, their positions, moons, and the ‘opening heavens….”One evening at the conference above mentioned [Topsham, Maine, 1846], in the house of Mr. Curtis, and in the presence of Elder (Captain) Bates, who was yet undecided in regard to the manifestations, Mrs. White, while in vision, began to talk about the stars, giving a glowing description of the rosy-tinted belts which she saw across the surface of some planet, and added, “I see four moons.” “Oh,” said Elder Bates, “she is viewing Jupiter.” Then, having made motions as though travelling through space, she began giving descriptions of belts and rings in their ever-varying beauty, and said, “I see seven moons.” “She is describing Saturn.” Next came a description of Uranus with his six moons, then a wonderful description of the “opening heavens.” … “This was sufficient, and accomplished its purpose. Elder Bates was convinced, and became a firm believer in the visions.”
This passage is quoted by the apologist Nichol from a standard Adventist History “The Great Second Advent Movement” by J N Loughborough, published in the 1890s when the dubs were still in diapers. According to sect historian Loughborough, from that night forth, The extremely WEALTHY Bates became a fully convicted believer in Ellen Whites “prophethood”, And he contributed accordingly, However, as Adventist ‘apostates’ point out, there is now, (1944) a problem with Mrs Whites ‘vision’. Nichol says:
QUOTE: “Later discoveries have now shown that both Jupiter and Saturn have MORE MOONS than she said.”
How does The Apologist explain these ‘false visions’ of Mrs White?? Nichol requotes the passage to point something out to us:
QUOTE: “I see four moons.” “Oh,” SAID ELDER BATES, “SHE IS VIEWING JUPITER”. Then, having made motions as though travelling through space, she began giving descriptions of belts and rings in their ever-varying beauty, and said, “I see seven moons.” SAID BATES “SHE IS DESCRIBING SATURN”.
The astute reader will notice that, in the passage quoted ( From Loughborough) it is not Mrs White who mentions Saturn or Jupiter, rather, it is the soon to be converted BATES. This pattern of blame shifting justification continues in the apologists very next quote:
QUOTE: “In May, 1847, James White made this brief reference to the 1846 vision:….“At our conference in Topsham, Maine, last Nov., Ellen had a vision of the handy works of God. She was guided to the planets, Jupiter, Saturn, and I think one more. After she came out of vision, she could give a clear description of their Moons, etc. It is well known, that she knew nothing of astronomy, and could not answer one question in relation to the planets, before she had this vision.”—A Word to the “Little Flock,” p. 22”
Here he is quoting JAMES WHITE, Ellen Whites husband and co founder of the Adventist publishing house. James White has ASSUMED Ellen was referring to Saturn and Jupiter, as did Bates ASSUME, But neither of these people are the CHANNEL thru which God communicates. Only Mrs White is the channel, so, like White House officials in service of a beleaguered president, the Secretary of State, the Vice President all posthumously step up to the block to be chopped, even the innocent have to accept blame for ASSUMING things that the channel never said. The apologist Nichol continues:
QUOTE: “Mrs. M. C. Truesdail (nee Stowell), who, as a girl of about sixteen, was present when the vision was given, wrote a letter of reminiscences in which she included this statement:…“Sister White was in very feeble health, and while prayers were offered in her behalf, the Spirit of God rested upon us. We soon noticed that she was insensible to earthly things. This was her first view of the planetary world. After counting aloud the moons of Jupiter, and soon after those of Saturn, she gave a beautiful description of the rings of the latter. She then said, ‘The inhabitants are a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of earth. Sin has never entered here.’ It was evident from Brother Bates's smiling face that his past doubts in regard to the source of her visions were fast leaving him. We all knew that Captain Bates was a great lover of astronomy, as he would often locate many of the heavenly bodies for our instruction. When Sister White replied to his questions, after the vision, saying that she had never studied or otherwise received knowledge in this direction, he was filled with joy and happiness. He praised God, and expressed his belief that this vision concerning the planets was given that he might never again doubt.”
The ‘inhabitants of Saturn are tall and majestic’. Lol. Loughborough has left that little statement out of his account of the vision altogether. But what is important is that, in the churches official version, everyone at the session, Captain Bates- later the third most important man in the movement, James White- The second most important person in the movement, Loughborough- the chief historian of the movement… All these people ASSUMED Mrs White was talking about Jupiter and Saturn, but she herself NEVER SAID IT. The followers “assumed”, incorrectly, as it turns out, and the channel is not guilty of false utterance. Surely this is a comprehensive example of the standard cult excuse of blaming the listeners for “reading things into the Watchtower, that were never said”. .
-
14
Prophecy understood when fullfilled
by refiners fire inpondering upon an old dub publication from the year 1942 i am caused to speculate upon the powerless nature of the watchtower god.
perhaps their god is in the privvy or is occupied with greater concerns than the fact that his channel of communication(the fds) makes a laughing stock of his name in the eyes of anyone who eyes eyes to read and brain cells to think with.
consider this from the 1942 book the new world chapter heading final end at hand it talks about the kings of the north/ south:
-
-
refiners fire
VM That was a very entertaining analysis of the passage from the article. many thanks.
WT 15 May 1995:
…”All of this led to a much clearer understanding of Revelation that came with the publication of Light, in two volumes, in 1930. Still more refinements appeared in “Babylon the Great Has Fallen!” God’s Kingdom Rules! (1963) and “Then Is Finished the Mystery of God” (1969). Yet, there was still more to learn about the prophetic book of Revelation. Yes, brighter light shone on it in 1988, with the publication of Revelation—Its Grand Climax At Hand!”….
Why brothers, does this mean that there are differences between the interpretations in those books? But surely, if this be the case then “Revelation- Its Grand Climax” is not the end all either. It too will be, later, subject to alteration. Light that is considered ultimately focused and glaring in 1963 is realized to be a mere muddy and dim view 70 years later. It never ends.
-
8
Truth about JW Anointing - Part 1 of 3
by Amazing ina large number, maybe majority, of jws misunderstand the watchtower theology on this topic, have a fuzzy idea of how jws who claim to be anointed know they are such, and ex-jws often wonder what former jw anointed believe and feel after leaving the watchtower religion.
since i have not been on line for many months, save a couple of minor posts, i thought a short 3-part series might prove interesting to new ex-jws and others.
part 1: watchtower theological evolution of the "anointed.
-
-
refiners fire
'He taught a two-class doctrine where the limited number of 144,000 would be the Bride of Christ, the Anointed, and that the Great Company or Multitude (Great Crowd today) would be an unlimited number who would accompany the 144,000 into heaven as bridesmaids. "
I Didnt know that!
"Therefore, it was declared again that the close of the heavenly calling ended by 1931, and only a few replacements would be brought into that group should one among them die unfaithful to their calling. This date was changed again in the late 1950s to 1935."
I didnt know THAT either!!
-
14
ANything friggin else gonna go belly up?
by SheilaM ineverything at once, yep that is what is going on here.
our drains backed-up thunder is reeming them out when our new not even a year old tv is going haywire.
wtf why is it when one thing breaks everything breaks?????
-
-
refiners fire
By the way, I think this is a GREAT title for a thread
"anythin friggin else gunna go belly up?" classic
-
12
Introducing Kelpie to dubs at the mall.
by BLISSISIGNORANCE inwell, not face to face...........after all she is df'ed.
lol.
kelpie and i had some fun at our local mall yesterday.
-
-
refiners fire
Im DF, Im "violently opposed to the truth". Some gullible trusting dub, innocently obeying the will of his heavenly father knocks on my door while engaged in the work. Of course, I dont Identify myself. What the hell? I Dont say: " Sorry brother, Im Disfellowshipped and HATE Jehovah, youd better write in the map there not to call here again because i will infect you" No no. Instead, I feign interest. I talk Bible with him and systematically manipulate his mind and plant evil apostate "time bombs" about Russellism, history fabrication and the like into his head.
..."Well, not face to face...........after all she is df'ed. LOL"....
Amazingly Some still have a conscience toward their "former fellow slaves". I Am not one of them.
-
12
Introducing Kelpie to dubs at the mall.
by BLISSISIGNORANCE inwell, not face to face...........after all she is df'ed.
lol.
kelpie and i had some fun at our local mall yesterday.
-
-
refiners fire
now what happens, say, if you (as a wicked apostate) introduce Kelps to an upstanding dub ? And Kelps doesnt volunteer that shes DF. Why should she after all? Shes DF and noone would expect a DF person to say "NO!! Cometh not near unto me!! I am unclean!!" . Now why would any dub expect a DF apostate to identify themselves as DF ?? After all, they serve SATAN dont they? So it seems to me that the DF Apostate would desire to insinuate him/ herself into company with upstanding dubs so they can be dragged into the pit. Now would Jehovah would have to withdraw his holy sprit from that dub just like he withdraws spirit from a congo if there is a fornicator in it. Yes?? I think he would. So what happens if the now spiritless dub "falls into a pit" and is stumbled out of the truth? Who is to blame? You? Jehovah? The innocent dub? Kelps?